Should we count decisions?
Posted by Michael | Posted in Christianity, Church | Posted on 25-03-2008
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It’s no secret that Jim from Old Truth has not been a fan of Oak Leaf and other churches. In the past, I’ve written him off, because I don’t have time for negativity. I quit reading those critical blogs. But I noticed a bunch of website referrals and made the mistake of reading a post.
It seems like the day after Easter, Jim was calling into question the authenticity of those who prayed to receive Christ at Oak Leaf Church on Easter Sunday. The questioning wasn’t limited to our church…He included my friends Perry and Steven as well.
Jim’s post obviously was not based on actually listening to my message, because I never alluded to the fact that signing a cross makes someone a Christian. And sure, there were lots of churches doing egg drops. There are also a lot of churches with choirs and steeples…I imagine those aren’t original thoughts. By the way, we decided 1 year ago to do an Egg Drop, and 9 months ago to do an 80’s series.
But I wanted to comment on one specific thing, because it’s a matter of Biblical understanding. Trust me…whenever God moves, there will be critics, and this blog will not become an attack blog and I will not spend all my time trying to justify what God is doing. I’m not accountable to Jim from Old Truth…I am accountable to God.
I will make no apologies for celebrating the fact that 60+ people indicated that they prayed to receive Christ. Jim seems to think that we should keep the number secret until we know how many were sincere. He wants to see how many stick.
There is a little truth there. Only God knows the heart. Salvation may begin with a decision, but discipleship is a process. It takes a little time to bear fruit. But the reason we celebrate the 60 is Biblical.
When the prodigal son returned to the Father (in the book of Luke), the Father didn’t wait three years to see if the son was sincere in his returning. He didn’t temper his enthusiasm to ensure that the returning sun exhibited true signs of return. No…right there, he killed the fat calf, decked out the son in fancy clothes, and threw a party. The Father celebrated immediately.
I will not focus all of my attention on the seed that falls on the rocky or thorny soil. While we look for ways to do better, we will celebrate the seed that falls on the good ground. I cannot tell the future any more than Jim can. I don’t know if these 60 people will come back next week, or be living out their faith 3 years from now. I don’t know if Jim will be living the Christian life three years from now. I will not lose sight of those who made genuine decisions because there might have been those who were not sincere.
Believe me, discipleship is important to us. Leading people from where they are to where God wants them to be involves more than just praying a prayer. In fact, we spent an hour in our lead team meeting yesterday talking about ways we can do that better. We will continue to look for ways to disciple better, as we will continue to look for ways to reach people better.
It’s been my experience that sites like Jim’s aren’t interested in discussion, so I wouldn’t go there to vent, complain, argue, or discuss. I’m not re-subscribing to his feed. But I believe there is a Biblical issue there that needed to be addressed.
I am proud of the Oak Leaf family. I’m getting reports from people who invited their ONE – the person you have been praying for – and you’re seeing God work. Shame on any website that throws water on that fire.
Michael:
I’m sorry to hear that you think our blog exists just to criticize and be negative. We do have some concerns which we feel are biblical and are very willing to engage in discussion about it with you or any of your friends. Feel free to stop by the post that Michael is referring to, introduce yourself and join in the discussion:
http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.974
Also note that we never “alluded to the fact that signing a cross makes someone a Christian” for you. Note my words on the link above “Apparently [Michael] doesn’t believe that swearing allegiance or signing your name to a cross makes you saved” unquote.
Remember those numbers-driven first Christians in Acts, when Peter preached 1 sermon and 3000 people believed and were added to the church that day? I guess they probably should have waited before reporting that number. Some of those people were probably just excited because so many people were being saved that day that they just went along. I wonder how many went the distance?
No, on second thought, I just want to celebrate that 3000 lives were impacted by the gospel that day. God is so much bigger than we understand. He doesn’t want anyone to be separated from Him. And we will do everything we can to make sure that the whole world knows about what Jesus Christ did and can do! We’ll leave the doubting to guys like Jim. In the meantime, there’s a world full of people going to a Christ-less Hell. Time is short. Hell is hot. And we have the only message that can change someone’s eternity. Let the doubters keep on doubting and the preachers will keep on preaching. You go, Michael! Higher ground!
[...] Sunday Rewind Did They, Or Didn’t They? March 25, 2008 I just finished reading this great post from Michael at Oak Leaf Church, and it raises an interesting discussion. He talks about how many [...]
Read any of Billy Graham’s books on his life and they are full of Convert Counts during the crusades. Do these not count as well? Was he wrong for mentioning them? I doubt he would be the target of these groups…even though it is exactly the same thing. The methods may change over time….The one constant is that the move of God can cause people to sell out and follow him. In a stadium or school auditorium the work of the Holy Spirit should always be celebrated. I will never be holy enough to question the power of Jesus….So for me 60 is an awesome number!
Michael,
The parable of the prodigal son is not intended to explain the truth of ones conversion, it has no bearing on this issue at all.
Cole:
Are you seriously comparing the words of the Holy Spirit, in saying that 3000 souls were added to the church, to Michael’s counting chickens before hatching?
The sad truth is that according to Barna only 2%-10% of those “making a decision” for Christ, “signing a cross” or whatever can even be found in fellowship one year later!
I don’t think that Jim is out of line here at all considering the fruit of the modern evangelistic method…
[...] on this issue so I won’t take the time to repeat it all. I would encourage you to read his response to what has been posted at the Old Truth site. Historically the oldest truth in Christianity is [...]
Michael, I believe it was you who was questioning the authenticity of some of those conversions by leaving this comment over on Old Truth;
“yes…time will tell. yes…growth is required. yes…there were probably some among the 60 who will not bear fruit. that is sad, and it breaks my heart to see people fall away.”
That is your comment verbatim.
All I can say is that I made a false profession in a church just like yours once, but the Lord worked in spite of the church, saving me both from my sin AND the church. I pray that the Lord may also save some from your church, in spite of your best efforts to keep people from Christ.
How do we know that the number of those in Acts was counted by a person among them? As far as I know, the bible was written by man but inspired by the Holy Spirit and since God is the only One who knows for sure who is and isn’t saved we cannot assume that it was a person who counted the number. Also with regard to the prodigal son, I believe that the reference to the father is actually a refence to God. God rejoices over the returning son (it’s His son) and only He knows the heart. I agree that we should also rejoice when someone comes to know that Lord but we can’t go around telling people that they are saved if we don’t know their hearts for sure. Those that did not “stick” will always look back on the day they were told that if they “prayed a prayer” they would be saved and they’ll think they are in the clear. It is likely to be them that say “Lord, Lord” but will be told away from me I never knew you. I don’t recall anyone ever praying to recieve Christ in the bible. They believed and repented (go sin no more). (If I am wrong please let me know) Also, salvation doesn’t begin with a decision, it is a process that God sets into motion, not the person or the evangelist. I hope this didn’t come off as critical. This is my first time commenting on any blog.
all the guys coming over from old truth, i will approve your comments, but you must keep things civil. it’s okay to debate church practices and wrestle with scripture, but no attacks.
frank, you’ve never attended my church as far as I know, so it’s probably unfair to group me in with something else. as it would be unfair to group you in with the pharisees. let’s be fair and honest and nice.
robert, i think the parable of the prodigal son bears meaning on this decision. you can’t just dismiss a story if it leads to something you don’t like, can you? the father didn’t wait until the son was home for three years to celebrate…he was immediately happy when the son acted on his decision to return home. is that a wrong assumption?
again guys…no personal attacks and your comments will be approved and not edited.
Romans 10:9 (New International Version)
9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
This is either true or its not….I still believe it is!
Michael
I visited your church website, and saw the exact same things as at the church I used to attend (it copied the Willow Creek/Saddleback model as well). The idea is to put the people to sleep in carnal security, give them enough activities so they won’t actually ponder their condition, and hopefully they will never know they are actually lost.
FYI: Pharisees are religious leaders and need a church to reside in for carnal security, I am without church.
frank, somehow, i don’t think that bailing out on the church would be God’s idea. no church is perfect, my friend. ours isn’t. willow creek isn’t. i’ve never been to saddleback, but i would bet theirs isn’t.
what you described in your last comment doesn’t describe our church at all.
I just wonder who died and left the attackers GOD. I, too, was baptized when I was 12 (cause that was the thing to do), felt the draw of the Lord when I was 18 (felt the call of Christ, but since I was already a church member, no one talked to me), and when I was 40, I heard a sermon on the prodigal son and my husband, Larry, knew there was something wrong with my soul. He was perceptive enough to take me into the living room, led me to a saving knowledge of Christ, and I was able to definitively say that I was a Christ-follower.
After I was baptized, again, there were approximately 6-8 members that realized that they had never made a commitment to Christ. Deacons, their wives, etc., made the commitments.
I think it’s a fault of the church if it doesn’t allow those who have the draw of Christ on their lives, to have affirmation, if you will, about their salvation. You never know…
I think Michael is right in using the Prodigal Son message for salvation. We are all wayward children coming home to our Lord and it’s kind of nice to think that our GOD wants to welcome us immediately. We are not to question what a person does about salvation. It’s all in God’s hands.
Also, if you will remember our SBC roots, it takes one to plant, one to water, and God to give the increase.
Let’s not question whether these commitments will stick, let’s do whatever we can to help disciple these precious souls in their Christian walk.
It amazes me that somebody can be that visceral about a place that they have never even attended. I visited Wal-Marts web site today and found it to be just as annoying as K-marts….They all try to take my money. It is just absurd! (P.S. Using word like Pharisees does not make your more spiritual)
Michael, the assumption of your post here is that as you put it; “Trust me…whenever God moves, there will be critics, and this blog will not become an attack blog and I will not spend all my time trying to justify what God is doing.”
Are we to assume that just because someone is criticizing your methods that means that God is working in your church? Would it be true to say that anyone who receives criticism is doing things according to the word of God no matter what?
You also pronounce shame on any website that criticizes your methods. Are you above rebuke? Can no one warn you of the error of your ways.
chad,
there’s a difference between being a mean spirited and critical person and offering constructive criticism. by all means, feel free to discuss the issue biblically or offer opinions. just don’t degrade or put down.
i have lots of people that i trust around me. i meet with a team of men regularly who have freedom to speak truth into my life and comment about the state of affairs in our church. they do not always agree with me, but i receive their feedback because i know they love jesus, love me, and love this church.
Michael, I would be interested in the answers to the questions that Chad raised:
“Are we to assume that just because someone is criticizing your methods that means that God is working in your church? Would it be true to say that anyone who receives criticism is doing things according to the word of God no matter what?”
Michael, receiving criticism from your own team is one thing. They are not as likely to tell you that having people sign their names to a cross is unbiblical. The thing is, when you publish on the internet the strategies, methods, and boast in the results those strategies bring, when you put that for the whole world to read, you immediately become accountable to everyone who reads your stuff. Just like you are accountable to all who participate in your ministry in person, so you are to all who participate via the internet. You are not just accountable to your team of advisors.
If you publish stuff on the world wide web you should expect that some one is going to react to it and you should be willing, when challenged by another Christian, to biblically defend your practice.
It’s one thing to ignore someone who barges into your office and starts demanding that you justify yourself. I would ignore such a person too. But by publishing on the internet with open comments it’s a whole new ball game.
Now, you keep mentioning mean spiritedness. What that either Jim or I have said in regards to the subject at hand could be considered mean spirited? Perhaps you could copy and past some of things that either of us has said about your post on the conversions this Easter and show us what it is that you consider mean spirited.
It’s incrediabely hypocritical of those folks at Old Truth to act like they’re concerned because some people may “think” they’re saved and safe and not really be saved and therefore they will never actually get saved – with their doctrine of unconditional election – the elect will be saved no matter what. They can make up all kinds of other reasons why they think using “numbers” are wrong, but the idea that someone may accidently think they got saved and are therefore safe and risk never being saved is simply not a reason they can use if they really truly believe in their unconditonal election. But then Calvinist are not known for their consistency.
Michael,
The parable cannot mean anything you want it to…what did the author intend for it to mean? That we can “count chickens” before they hatch?
There is no hermeneutic that would allow that interpretation….c’mon…
Matt,
There is a lot of error in your assumption that since someone has never experienced something then they cannot comment on it in a meaningful way.
Can you see that this is a false line of reasoning?
We, as humans, judge things everyday without directly experiencing them. If we weren’t able to do that, then we might not live through the day.
You know as well as I do that you wouldn’t and shouldn’t attend a Mormon church…right? But by your logic…shouldn’t you attend a few times to see their “fruit” before you decide that they are in error?
You wouldn’t do that. You’d assess what they have to say, by the printed word or by hearing what they say, and then you’d judge rightly that they were in error.
Those of you who are posting on the this blog and others need to remember that our Lord Jesus is listening to every comment you are making. Are we not suppose to be all things to all men. Many of you are being a stumbling block to me and the name of Jesus!!!
Michael:
On the one hand, you say in your blog, “I prayed for 50 people to be saved in the month of March…that many were saved on one day.”
On the other hand, you said on Jim’s blog, “i hope all 60 were good soil.”
Do you see the logical conflict with these two statements? If someone were saved, you wouldn’t have to hope that they stick with the faith. If someone wasn’t, “good soil,” then don’t you have the grave responsibility to ensure that these people have the true knowledge and saving grace of the Gospel?
I hate to say it, but if you are wrong in this avenue, even in the slightest, people will go to Hell when they die.
–
CS
Michael,
I just went to the Old Truth website and was very disappointed in it. They are very closed minded and really need our prayers. It’s a shame that they are critical of what Oak Leaf is doing.
Just keep up the good work and showing people the way to Christ. No one can dispute what you say about salvation and how to receive it. As long as it’s according to God’s word, how can it be wrong. If they would listen to your sermons they would be able to hear what is being said and know for sure.
Michael, you also said over on Old Truth; “signing the cross was something that we did as a response to a staff meeting and praying to God. we did it because God led, not because Granger did it.”
Now, you have offered no proof that the methods used this Easter were scriptural methods, and you won’t be able to. There is nothing even remotely associated with signing a cross linked to evangelism in the scriptures. It is simply not a God ordained method. Instead you had a staff meeting and then prayed. In spite of the pattern laid out in scripture you and your staff talked it over, came up with your own idea, then prayed about it. Obviously after prayer you felt that you were given permission by God to do this. I find this odd since you put aside the commands of Scripture for your own thoughts and you seem to claim that God Himself approved of the idea. This would put your methods above criticism wouldn’t it? Your authority came straight from God in spite of what the Scriptures say. Are you willing to say that God himself told you to that it was O.K. to do this?
There is something to be warned about here Michael. The scripture says that if someone claims to have a message from God and it does not accord with the Scripture, that he is in fact false. (Isa. 8:20).
So what one may conclude from your comments is that while you do indeed hold Scripture to be important, it can be bypassed with a staff meeting and prayer.
Do you care to respond to this?
What is wrong with everyone? How did 60 people who came to know the lord on Sunday turn into such a critical debate? We should rejoice for those that found Christ. It is not our place to question the authenticity of their hearts. Only the Lord knows that, and I can just imagine his heartache right now. Something so wonderful and so miraculous has turned into contempt and name calling. Such shame.
Right on man. Keep counting those decisions and let God examine the hearts. I’m so excited for you guys and the amazing things God is doing through you. Just know that people who have never been to your church or even met you are rejoicing with you and praying for you and your church.
Brad Ruggles
http://www.bradruggles.com
I had 2 Weight Watcher’s cheese quesadillas for lunch today.
Sorry, correction, I meant to say chicken and cheese.
Having read both the post at Old Truth and this post, here’s what I can say:
It seems that the point that Jim was making was that only the Holy Spirit knows who is saved, so that YOU cannot possibly know who is genuinely saved. And since you cannot possibly know, you shouldn’t recite numbers as if you do know.
Then you said,
“I don’t know if these 60 people will come back next week, or be living out their faith 3 years from now.”
Well, if these people aren’t living out their faith three years from now, then they were not saved. And since you just admitted that you don’t know, all you’re really doing is agreeing with what Jim said.
And because he is correct about what he said (BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION), why don’t you just give him a ‘thank you, brother’ for helping you see that something you did was wrong.
Seems like that would’ve helped to avoid a lot of discussion.
Michael,
While I agree with Jim from “Old Truth, I commend you for allowing those who differ with you on spiritual issues to have their say on your blog for all to see. Unfortunately there is at least one pastor, maybe more out there with blogs that will not allow postings that are legitimate spiritual concerns from one brother in Christ to another.
I know at least one pastor who operates this way. If T.C. of RPC asks blog readers to post “What they think?” on his blog he should have the integrity to post it as long as it’s “not” as you put it “mean spirited”, “degrading”, or void of “constructive critism”.
Where in the Bible does it say anybody is suppose to tell people that they are saved? Nowhere, it is the Holy Spirits job to do that. We are only to tell them how to be saved.
of course there is nothing in the bible about people signing crosses with sharpies as a form of evangelism. there’s also nothing in the bible about hymnals, steeples, choir robes, ministers of music, churches owning property, or blogs.
the bible doesn’t address the issue of signing crosses nor any of these areas. so i would assume that christians are free to use their conscience, pray for wisdom, and act accordingly.
to those that keep commenting that i contradict myself, you are right. there is a paradox at work here.
i celebrate over the 60 that indicated that they prayed to receive christ. i pray that they were sincere. we will do everything we can to help them grow and follow jesus with their lives.
it’s also true that only God knows the heart. i can only celebrate what i witnessed with my own eyes.
I think the KEY word people are missing in this entire post is “indicated”
Michael:
“to those that keep commenting that i contradict myself, you are right. there is a paradox at work here. i celebrate over the 60 that indicated that they prayed to receive christ. i pray that they were sincere.”
Thank you for acknowledging that. With that said, what steps will you take with these 60 people to ensure that they are saved, or that they have full knowledge of the Gospel? How will you go about rectifying the problem that may lay dormant right now? If even one of them remains convinced that he or she is saved, yet bears no fruit and continues living in sin, there are horrible consequences for everyone involved.
–
CS
CS,
I don’t know that we have a perfect system, and we’re looking to improve, but here’s what we do for new converts.
1. i wrote a short document describing prayer, bible study, and serving others.
2. our small groups pastor will work with these people individually to get them involved in a small group. our small groups focus on discipleship. i belive if a person conencts with a small group, we’ll give discipleship the best chance to happen.
3. we are looking into offering some 3-4 week seminars on how to study the bible, theology, church history, intro to OT and NT, along with some seminars on parenting and finances. these would be medium sized groups, with the emphasis on relational discipleship
4. we follow up with people about being baptized and will walk them through it. we schedule baptisms throughout the year.
5. we provide books and recommended resources at our resource table.
6. we are looking into (haven’t pulled the trigger) on a “class” for new believers, to cover some of the basics of the faith and next steps.
mark,
you’re right on man. in my original post, I said that 60 people “indicated” that they prayed to receive Christ. I celebrate that! thanks for all you do at oak leaf church by the way…you are the man.
There is a line where constructive criticism ends, and harmful, mean spirited thoughts begin. I don’t understand why when 60+ people prayed to receive Christ, that others have to have a negative mentality about it. Instead of debating about whether or not those indicating that they were saved this past Sunday are actually going to live their life as a Christ follower, why not rejoice about the recent event that has just taken place? Why not pray to ask God to give those claiming to be saved the strength to live their lives for Him and ONLY Him? I’m only 17 years old and I believe I might be making more sense than some of these negative minded folks commenting this blog, or maybe I’m just being optimistic……take your pick.
Michael, you say that Mark “is the man”. Now, to an ordinary fella like myself, it seems you have “indicated” that he is the man. I believe some will find objection with that. We must ask ourselves, “Is Mark really the man?”
Yes, he is a faithful servant at Oak Leaf. Yes, he has some degree of “coolness”. But, to be considered or regarded “as the man”….that is a serious claim that cannot be taken lightly.
What Scriptural reference can you provide for such talk?
Thanks.
Michael, Do you teach the Pelagian/humanistic error that man is basically good? If that is not what you believe, then you need to teach a class on it because some of your church members believe that.
Michael,
Keep counting! I was there. I was standing on the side waiting to counsel anyone who desired to pray and/or talk with someone about their decision to start a walk with Christ. I stood there and watched the hands go up! (sorry I peeked) What a beautiful sight to see so many make decisions to become Christians. As well as those who wanted to get some things right with God.
My ONE was there… he responded. He called to let me know of his decision. Not only does Oakleaf have a part to play in his discipleship but I do too.
Becoming a mature follower of Christ is a process. I can recall so many times throughout my life when I knew God was drawing me to Himself. And at each of these places I had a decision to make.
When I was 18, I wasn’t even at a church when I made the greatest and probably my strongest step in following Jesus. Of all places I was at a KISS concert. No preacher around. The Holy Spirit was there. The decision to forsake all and follow Christ that night was real. Just like the decision to follow Him when I was 14 at FBC. There was another time when I was about 8 watching the 700 Club. I prayed then too… I can go earlier than that as a bus kid in the 1st grade. Each of these moments had significance in my life.
It is a process. I have yet to meet one baby born into this world ready to eat a steak. But someone has to lovingly feed that baby a bottle and remain committed to see the baby grow to become a mature adult. I believe Oakleaf is committed to see those who respond to any invitation to see them grow and mature. I know the discipleship that is going on inside our Journey groups is prepared to lead this effort!!
For God so love the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16.
ahhh, heated debates over semantics. Reminds me of my college days. I love it.
Let me personally apologize to all those OT posters who have insinuated Michael did not mention, teach, or discuss the Law, repentance, or what it means to be “saved.” You see, it is my job at OLC to edit the videos and post them online and I chose to omit the 5-10 minute conclusion that might have shed a little more intelligent perspective to what actually went down at OLC Easter morning.
I’ve actually been interested in this particular discussion and made my way over to the Old Truth to see what the fuss was about. If it gets through the screening process, I’ll post my comments to this whole debate over there.
So many “scholars”…so many lost because “scholars” seem to love spending their time questioning the movement of the Holy Spirit. Doesn’t the Bible say something about those who are “wise in their own eyes”? Quit bashing something as amazing as 60 people coming to Christ! Scripture says that all of the heavens rejoice when just one comes to believe…why do you critics insist on doing your best to trash that?
Michael, et al
As a young 30-something pastor, I can appreciate where your coming from. So often the traditional church gets caught up in steeples, orders of service, attire, and humanly invented methodologies. I am not foolish enough to think I can escape these things (after all, we simply create new ones). I am glad to you you reaching out, being relevant, and (I trust, since I have not listened to any of your sermons) being firmly committed to the truth.
One thing to keep in mind. We are young (you and I). We have much to learn about leadership and much growth to experience regarding biblical maturity. It’s a journey, and one that I find exciting.
I have no problem with altar calls (though I don’t use them much). I think nailing your name on a cross to declare a new relationship is simply awesome. Keep it up. Yet there is truth in Jim’s (from Old Truth) critique. “Easy-believism” sends thousands of people to hell. I shudder to think of how many people are in hell even though they said a prayer and (even) attended church. The only potential solution is following up such moments with solid biblical teaching about the radical nature of being a fully committed follower of Jesus.
I know nothing about your ministry. Until shown otherwise, I will assume you teach solid (albeit relevant) biblical message. I will assume you get people into small groups that are more than relational fluff, and which get people to seriously dig into their bibles. I will assume you get your adults to engage in bible memory. I will assume that you prod your people to a better, fully understanding of God’s word. All while wearing blue jeans and sporting a messy hair style. Dude, awesome.
If you are doing those things, SWEET! Jesus is pleased, God is glorified, and lives are changed.
Keep learning, stick to the journey, listen to wisdom from all sectors of Christ’s bride. Peace.
Michael:
I read through your list of items that you do for new believers. This is excellent and brings a great wealth of knowledge and discipleship to the church. I wish that my church had even this much detail and focus, because we’re sorely lacking right now.
Again, though, these items are for believers, of which you cannot guarantee any of the 60 truly are.
Why not, instead, go and meet with each of them one-on-one, and say something like, “Hey, friend. I am very concerned for you. You indicated that you wanted to make a decision for Christ on Sunday. Do you know what this means? Can you explain the Gospel to me, and tell me why you are a believer now?”
By listening then to what the person says, you will be able to see if there is fruit budding and if they are taking root. If they say, without any contrition or remorse, something like, “Yeah, I wanted a better life because there’s a God-shaped hole in my heart,” chances are that they were not saved. If the person can explain sin, grace, repentance, and Christ’s work on the cross, you can begin to have confidence in their salvation.
What do you think of this idea? Will you do this for them?
–
CS
60 people is such a rad number! Ifind nothing negative in 60 people that said, “hey, I’d like to know Christ.” To me, thats rather amazing. I’m stoked to call Oak Leaf my church.
Bulls eye Jeanine! Scholars and critics have done a healthy job of turning a moment of rejoice into yet another religion.
jim,
what’s your question. i must have missed it. i confess that I don’t slave over this blog…i spent the majority of the day on an airplane. if you have a simple question, i’ll do my best to offer a simple answer.