Should we count decisions?
Posted by Michael | Posted in Christianity, Church | Posted on 25-03-2008
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It’s no secret that Jim from Old Truth has not been a fan of Oak Leaf and other churches. In the past, I’ve written him off, because I don’t have time for negativity. I quit reading those critical blogs. But I noticed a bunch of website referrals and made the mistake of reading a post.
It seems like the day after Easter, Jim was calling into question the authenticity of those who prayed to receive Christ at Oak Leaf Church on Easter Sunday. The questioning wasn’t limited to our church…He included my friends Perry and Steven as well.
Jim’s post obviously was not based on actually listening to my message, because I never alluded to the fact that signing a cross makes someone a Christian. And sure, there were lots of churches doing egg drops. There are also a lot of churches with choirs and steeples…I imagine those aren’t original thoughts. By the way, we decided 1 year ago to do an Egg Drop, and 9 months ago to do an 80’s series.
But I wanted to comment on one specific thing, because it’s a matter of Biblical understanding. Trust me…whenever God moves, there will be critics, and this blog will not become an attack blog and I will not spend all my time trying to justify what God is doing. I’m not accountable to Jim from Old Truth…I am accountable to God.
I will make no apologies for celebrating the fact that 60+ people indicated that they prayed to receive Christ. Jim seems to think that we should keep the number secret until we know how many were sincere. He wants to see how many stick.
There is a little truth there. Only God knows the heart. Salvation may begin with a decision, but discipleship is a process. It takes a little time to bear fruit. But the reason we celebrate the 60 is Biblical.
When the prodigal son returned to the Father (in the book of Luke), the Father didn’t wait three years to see if the son was sincere in his returning. He didn’t temper his enthusiasm to ensure that the returning sun exhibited true signs of return. No…right there, he killed the fat calf, decked out the son in fancy clothes, and threw a party. The Father celebrated immediately.
I will not focus all of my attention on the seed that falls on the rocky or thorny soil. While we look for ways to do better, we will celebrate the seed that falls on the good ground. I cannot tell the future any more than Jim can. I don’t know if these 60 people will come back next week, or be living out their faith 3 years from now. I don’t know if Jim will be living the Christian life three years from now. I will not lose sight of those who made genuine decisions because there might have been those who were not sincere.
Believe me, discipleship is important to us. Leading people from where they are to where God wants them to be involves more than just praying a prayer. In fact, we spent an hour in our lead team meeting yesterday talking about ways we can do that better. We will continue to look for ways to disciple better, as we will continue to look for ways to reach people better.
It’s been my experience that sites like Jim’s aren’t interested in discussion, so I wouldn’t go there to vent, complain, argue, or discuss. I’m not re-subscribing to his feed. But I believe there is a Biblical issue there that needed to be addressed.
I am proud of the Oak Leaf family. I’m getting reports from people who invited their ONE – the person you have been praying for – and you’re seeing God work. Shame on any website that throws water on that fire.
on my wedding day, jennie stood in a church and said “i do.” I did not wait for three years to see if that promise stuck…I took her at her word and believed her.
When the prodigal son came home, the father didn’t wait a year to see if he would stay for good…he celebrated.
When 60+ people raise their hands saying they are deciding to give their heart to Jesus, turn away from their sins and swear their allegiance to Jesus, then I will celebrate that.
Then we’ll go to work helping these people follow Jesus, grow in their faith, and take the next step.
and this is my last comment on this matter.
Well said. I think it is time to close this blog entry.
The missing comment from Jim at Old Truth:
Michael:
I’m sorry to hear that you think our blog exists just to criticize and be negative. We do have some concerns which we feel are biblical and are very willing to engage in discussion about it with you or any of your friends. Feel free to stop by the post that Michael is referring to, introduce yourself and join in the discussion:
http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.974
Also note that we never “alluded to the fact that signing a cross makes someone a Christian” for you. Note my words on the link above “Apparently [Michael] doesn’t believe that swearing allegiance or signing your name to a cross makes you saved” unquote.
Well done Michael. Well done Oak Leaf.
After scanning the comments on this blog I have just a few comments. I do not go to Oak Leaf…never have. I probably have a similar theological beliefs about conversion, the work of the Holy Spirit, election, etc. as some of the guys at Old Truth…so…
1) Is this all we have to do? Sit and judge others? Are ANY OF YOU PASTORing A CHURCH?
2) If you are not an elder at Oak Leaf Michael does not really have any reason sit and pray over your blog comments all day. He is accountable to Oak Leaf Church and GOD. Heeding godly counsel is a must but if you don’t love Michael and desire God’s best for him then why should he listen to you. You are strangers…how does he know to consider anything you say as sincere?
3) I believe many in our churches are lost and couldn’t explain the Gospel to a 1st grader but that does not give me the authority to act as an Apostle and become the benchmark for church fruit across America. My job is to proclaim the truth and to make disciples. We spend a lot of time arguing with people over theological or philosophical differences that are on OUR team…Paul’s strongest rebukes were saved for heretics. He did rebuke Peter once that we know of but I have no doubt Paul loved Peter and prayed for his ministry and saw him as a co-laborer…I do not get the same feeling from some of you concerning Michael.
4) Yes. If these people truly trust Christ life change will happen. They will love the church and grow spiritually. Should we be careful about promoting numbers…sure I think so…but I also believe some of those of the calvinist persuasion have went to the opposit extreme and would have someone wait 6 months before they would even baptize them. I don’t find that biblical either.
5) I’ve spent too much time on this already..so not I’m a hypocrite. God’s best to you guys and I hope for God’s best at Oak Leaf. OLC has not arrived, they are not perfect … but I hope they have a desire to love Jesus…love others…and be as biblically sound as possible.
I have been thinking about this idea that man has no role in his own salvation a lot and I just don’t think that washes with the example given to us by Jesus.
What about the Thief on the Cross at Calvary? He recognized his own sin…..Recognized the Divinity of Jesus and asked that Jesus save him.
Jesus saved this man at his request only after he saw the sin in his own life and sought out the creator to redeem him. By the way the grace of Jesus was immediate……and that was pretty important in the case of this thief. No one had to wait to see if it took……Jesus said you will be with ME. The thief played a role in his salvation……maybe the one on the left was elected and therefore did not need to call on the creator for salvation.
By Calvinist standards the Thief on the right would have never had to speak……I don’t think that this is the model Jesus would have us to use.
Grace is a gift given freely by Jesus but it comes through man ultimate recognition that God is sovereign and the only way to Heaven is through his son Jesus.
I think we have this story for a reason and that is to teach us that Jesus paid the price for our sins so that we could call out to him and ASK him to save us. This may be the most overlooked part of the death and resurrection of Christ.
Matt,
There are several biblical problems with some of you above statements. I would also say to loop all calvinist in a bucket and say “by calvinist standards” is a bit unfair.
Yes..the thief on the cross became a believer…yes he trusted Christ. But are you assuming the Holy Spirit had no role? Looking at the Scriprutes as a whole we can see the he had to be convicted by the Spirit and drawn by the Spirit and given faith. In response he repented and believed. True conversion will always manifest itself, but that does not negate the fact that God did the work. Man’s role is simply to trust and that itself is God’s gift. I feel this is a biblically balanced view. I just don’t want you to turn into one of the “calvinist haters” out there. There’s room in the Church for all who have repented of sin and solely trusted Christ alone for salvation … calvinist, biblicist, methodist, Charismatic.
JM said “If you are not an elder at Oak Leaf Michael does not really have any reason sit and pray over your blog comments all day”.
I think you bring up a very good point. I see a trend that many pastors have of blogging….blogging about nothing really. Wouldn’t their time be more constructive sitting before the Lord in prayer and reading His word rather than writing about the ramblings of their own thoughts?
No blog – no comments – no worries. Just the pastor and the Lord.
That may a tad legalistic…just a TAAAAD. Preachers have been journaling for centuries…this is nothing more than an open journal. It’s good…it’s healthy…just don’t let it be addictive.
I was not attempting to be legalistic. It’s one thing to journal. It’s quite another to write about mindless things. This unfortunately, is the pattern of most of the pastor bloggers I have seen. Please don’t put words into my mouth by implying I think all blogging is bad.
Man looks on the outward appearance and only God sees the heart, so only He can know if these conversions are genuine. In light of eternity most of these comments seem trivial and I am glad I keep my eyes and ears on God. It also seems to me that the signing of the cross was symbolic much like baptism which is also symbolic and has no power to save.
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